[widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive...

[Gmx Private 01]

Hello All,

I do not think your information is really complete...

1. The only country which really has a law with 20 or more Years for
"Wiederbetaetigung" so called Nazi revivalism is Austria... and this
you have to understand in a historic context (Hitler being an Austrian
and all...)

2. Germany has seen the most traumatic event for a civilized country -
that a dictator came to power through democratic means... therefore
there is a "bill of rights" the so called Grundgesetz which is no
longer changeable to prevent this - there lies the basis for Germanys
distrust of "subversive societies" - and lets be honest - on a
corporational level there is little diference between a multinational
company and the churches, be it the roman cathlic or scientology

3. There is a totally different understanding of the responsabilities
of the state in Europe - in the EU the state "protects" his citizens
from the private sector and organizations - this being good or bad I
cannot say...

4. I remember once when in an EFF article they wanted a little more
regulation in the US while the European activists wanted a little
less.. the problem of the fine line as always...  : )

5. The strict division between beliefs and state is one of the
foundations of continental european thinking and philosophy... you can
do what you want as long as your actions do not discriminate others...
as a cross or wearing the burka in school might well do... (the
problem of protection as mentioned earlier)

6. Continental legal system (=acccepted -more or less - rules for
societies) is a rule based system not a common law system... this is
also shown in the measures...

7. The recent erosion of civil and digital rights (biometric
passports, databases etc) is related to the measures
the US has taken after 9/11 - and this brought the victory of the
already loosing hardliners in the EU (for more info on ENFOPOL
Biometric Passports, Flight Data Affair etc see www.statewatch.org)

But in the end all these measures are relatively new and were
introduced very fast - the question will now be of they are accepted
by the population - because if there is a continuous debate they will
be questioned and reversed again as it happens so often with new laws
and new areas where there is no further experience...

So in the end for me, coming from the continental tradition, I would
rather say our rights are better protected in Europe than in the US -
but that, I am sure, depends heavily on your personal background...

just my 5 cent,

cheers,

gego




Thursday, October 14, 2004, 1:04:33 AM, you wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-10-13 at 14:12, nicolas vigier wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Ben McGinnes wrote:
>> 
>> > nicolas vigier(boklm at mars-attacks.org)@Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 06:59:30PM +0200:
>> > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, drag sidious wrote:
>> > > 
>> > > > myself to the EU or China's government myself. I can do and say things
>> > > > in this country that would get me arrested in countries with lesser
>> > > > garentees on free speech, such as Germany or France. Stuff that.
>> > > 
>> > > Hmm, are you sure there are less garentees on free speech in Germany and
>> > > France ? At least there is not (yet ?) something like DMCA.
>> > 
>> > Yeah, both of those countries have some interesting legacies from
>> > World War II.  Or rather, from immediately following the war. Certain
>> > restrictions meant to prevent the rise of Nazism again, particularly
>> > in Germany.
>> > 
>> > As for France, it's had some pro-secular/anti-religion laws since the
>> > Revolution (ref. no Muslim scarves in schools).
>> 
>> Yes, overt religious symbols are not allowed in public schools, but you
>> are free to do what you want outside school, or in private schools.
>> I don't really think we can talk about lesser garentees on free speech
>> because of this law, you are still free to have the religion you like.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> widdershins at attrition.org
>> http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins

> With Germany it's more then just trying to supress left over remnents
> from Ww2, but it's beginning to spread to ban all forms of "hate"
> speech.

> It is a good thing to a certain extent, but what constitutes "hate"
> speech? It's very subjective and will invariably lead to minority voices
> being squashed and ideas suppressed. Of course they are only going to
> pick on ideas/speech that are very very distastefull and negative.
> Religious speech that may promote rascism, for instance.

> Plus now your not only dealing with Germany, when you live in Germany,
> but now you have the European Union being established as a higher form
> of government. Which, personally, I would find much more scary then
> retardation like the DMCA or patriot act.

> There already have been rumbling between the US Government (Bush
> administration) and the EU from them trying to get the US to join in on
> filtering parts of the internet to supress distastefull ideas and forms
> of speech.

> Of course the US could never possibly join in on something like that (at
> least until people are convinced that "freedom of speech" is as
> meaningless/narrow in it's definition as "the right to keep and bare
> arms"), but apparently most European countries have no problem with this
> sort of supression of speech.

> See:
> http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,56294,00.html?tw=wn_story_related

> The US has some very bad mojo going that we have to paraniod about,
> definately. But it's a much more serious problem in places outside the
> US in terms of freedom of speech.

> Vigilance is something everybody needs to excersice instead of knee-jerk
> "bush is teh cheney's bitch"/"US is teh suck" type things that seems
> very popular nowadays. There are big political forces that we need to be
> very scared about. Chinese have almost perfected their methods of
> filtering and banning out most of the internet, As does many Middle
> eastern countries. It would suck if similar barriers formed themselves
> between western Europe and the rest of the world.

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-- 
Best regards,
 Gmx                            mailto:gegohouse at gmx.at