From nightswings at netscape.net Mon Oct 11 10:37:40 2004 From: nightswings at netscape.net (Alan Bounds) Date: Mon Oct 11 10:45:29 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... Message-ID: <416A9AB4.2080608@netscape.net> is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? From munge at attrition.org Mon Oct 11 11:14:08 2004 From: munge at attrition.org (Small Grey) Date: Mon Oct 11 11:14:17 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <416A9AB4.2080608@netscape.net> (Alan Bounds's message of "Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:37:40 -0500") References: <416A9AB4.2080608@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9ekk5thhb.fsf@forced.attrition.org> >>>>> "Alan" == Alan Bounds writes: Alan> is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? Apparently inactive. But no, you're not cut off. -- COGITO ERGO DISCLAMO From bkdelong at pobox.com Mon Oct 11 11:11:01 2004 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Mon Oct 11 11:18:10 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <416A9AB4.2080608@netscape.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20041011111018.03f29cc0@mail.brain-stream.com> At 09:37 AM 10/11/2004 -0500, Alan Bounds wrote: >is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or elsewhere should Bush be reelected. -- B.K. DeLong bkdelong@pobox.com +1.617.797.2472 http://bkdelong.mit.edu Work. http://www.brain-stream.com Play. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. http://www.city-of-doors.com Sigil. http://www.hackerfoundation.org Future. http://www.osvdb.org/ Security. http://www.wkdelong.org Son. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From RBronson at bna.com Mon Oct 11 11:29:46 2004 From: RBronson at bna.com (Richard Bronson) Date: Mon Oct 11 11:37:18 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... Message-ID: yours is the only posting I've seen in ages Alan Bounds cc: (bcc: Richard Bronson/BNA Inc) Sent by: Subject: [widdershins] just curious... widdershins-bounces@at trition.org 10/11/2004 10:37 AM Please respond to widdershins is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? _______________________________________________ widdershins mailing list widdershins@attrition.org http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From hellnbak at nmrc.org Mon Oct 11 11:33:44 2004 From: hellnbak at nmrc.org (hellNbak) Date: Mon Oct 11 11:42:39 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20041011111018.03f29cc0@mail.brain-stream.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20041011111018.03f29cc0@mail.brain-stream.com> Message-ID: LOL Don't come up here to Canada. Look at the cluebags we have running things On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, B.K. DeLong wrote: > At 09:37 AM 10/11/2004 -0500, Alan Bounds wrote: >> is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or elsewhere should > Bush be reelected. > > > -- > B.K. DeLong > bkdelong@pobox.com > +1.617.797.2472 > > http://bkdelong.mit.edu Work. > http://www.brain-stream.com Play. > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. > http://www.city-of-doors.com Sigil. > http://www.hackerfoundation.org Future. > http://www.osvdb.org/ Security. > http://www.wkdelong.org Son. > > > PGP Fingerprint: > 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE > > FOAF: > http://foaf.brain-stream.org > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > From munge at attrition.org Mon Oct 11 11:48:05 2004 From: munge at attrition.org (Small Grey) Date: Mon Oct 11 11:48:13 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20041011111018.03f29cc0@mail.brain-stream.com> (B. K. DeLong's message of "Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:11:01 -0400") References: <5.2.1.1.2.20041011111018.03f29cc0@mail.brain-stream.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "BK" == B K DeLong writes: [...] BK> Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or BK> elsewhere should Bush be reelected. Stay and fight -- that is what 'They' want you to do -- give up, leave, retreat. It's our country too. -- You are in a twisty maze of weblogs, all alike. From zen at MIT.EDU Mon Oct 11 11:56:40 2004 From: zen at MIT.EDU (will taggart) Date: Mon Oct 11 12:03:39 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Funny how this list just petered out after a few years...how long was this active anyway, I remember 2000-2002 was fairly active, but still low traffic. _____________________________________ Will Taggart Graduate Student Science, Technology and Society Massachusetts Institute of Technology Mail: zen@mit.edu On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Richard Bronson wrote: > > yours is the only posting I've seen in ages > > > > Alan Bounds > net> cc: (bcc: Richard Bronson/BNA Inc) > Sent by: Subject: [widdershins] just curious... > widdershins-bounces@at > trition.org > > > 10/11/2004 10:37 AM > Please respond to > widdershins > > > > > > > is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > From ben at adversary.org Mon Oct 11 11:59:29 2004 From: ben at adversary.org (Ben McGinnes) Date: Mon Oct 11 12:07:06 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20041011111018.03f29cc0@mail.brain-stream.com>; from bkdelong@pobox.com on Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 11:11:01AM -0400 References: <416A9AB4.2080608@netscape.net> <5.2.1.1.2.20041011111018.03f29cc0@mail.brain-stream.com> Message-ID: <20041012015929.E14844@devious.adversary.org> B.K. DeLong(bkdelong@pobox.com)@Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 11:11:01AM -0400: > At 09:37 AM 10/11/2004 -0500, Alan Bounds wrote: > >is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or elsewhere > should Bush be reelected. Just like us Australians, who already have Little Johnnie back in power for another three years. The two prime candidates for places to flee to a Canada and New Zealand. Regards, Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.attrition.org/pipermail/widdershins/attachments/20041012/4d21e428/attachment.bin From zzzil at dslextreme.com Mon Oct 11 12:31:47 2004 From: zzzil at dslextreme.com (zzzil) Date: Mon Oct 11 12:39:11 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20041011111018.03f29cc0@mail.brain-stream.com> Message-ID: <416AB573.9000202@dslextreme.com> Small Grey wrote: >>>>>>"BK" == B K DeLong writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > >[...] > BK> Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or > BK> elsewhere should Bush be reelected. > > Stay and fight -- that is what 'They' want you to do -- give up, > leave, retreat. It's our country too. > > > How long 'til he turns his evil eye northward, anyway? lizzz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.attrition.org/pipermail/widdershins/attachments/20041011/0f8ec0e3/attachment.html From indianz at indianz.ch Mon Oct 11 17:11:44 2004 From: indianz at indianz.ch (IndianZ) Date: Mon Oct 11 15:16:30 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> good to hear some voices in the dark ;-) GreetZ from IndianZ mailto:indianz@indianz.ch http://www.indianz.ch On Monday 11 October 2004 17.56, will taggart wrote: > Funny how this list just petered out after a few years...how long was > this active anyway, I remember 2000-2002 was fairly active, but still low > traffic. > > _____________________________________ > Will Taggart > Graduate Student > Science, Technology and Society > Massachusetts Institute of Technology > Mail: zen@mit.edu > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Richard Bronson wrote: > > yours is the only posting I've seen in ages > > > > > > > > Alan Bounds > > > widdershins@attrition.org net> cc: (bcc: > > Richard Bronson/BNA Inc) Sent by: Subject: > > [widdershins] just curious... widdershins-bounces@at > > trition.org > > > > > > 10/11/2004 10:37 AM > > Please respond to > > widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > _______________________________________________ > > widdershins mailing list > > widdershins@attrition.org > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > widdershins mailing list > > widdershins@attrition.org > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From jamyang at openflows.org Mon Oct 11 15:47:15 2004 From: jamyang at openflows.org (jamyang) Date: Mon Oct 11 15:50:03 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> Message-ID: <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> http://openflows.org/index.pl?section=analysis&subsection=27 On Mon, 2004-10-11 at 22:11, IndianZ wrote: > good to hear some voices in the dark ;-) > > GreetZ from IndianZ > > mailto:indianz@indianz.ch > http://www.indianz.ch > > > > > On Monday 11 October 2004 17.56, will taggart wrote: > > Funny how this list just petered out after a few years...how long was > > this active anyway, I remember 2000-2002 was fairly active, but still low > > traffic. > > > > _____________________________________ > > Will Taggart > > Graduate Student > > Science, Technology and Society > > Massachusetts Institute of Technology > > Mail: zen@mit.edu > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Richard Bronson wrote: > > > yours is the only posting I've seen in ages > > > > > > > > > > > > Alan Bounds > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org net> cc: (bcc: > > > Richard Bronson/BNA Inc) Sent by: Subject: > > > [widdershins] just curious... widdershins-bounces@at > > > trition.org > > > > > > > > > 10/11/2004 10:37 AM > > > Please respond to > > > widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > > _______________________________________________ > > > widdershins mailing list > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > widdershins mailing list > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > _______________________________________________ > > widdershins mailing list > > widdershins@attrition.org > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From nightswings at netscape.net Mon Oct 11 20:49:22 2004 From: nightswings at netscape.net (Alan Bounds) Date: Mon Oct 11 20:57:06 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> Message-ID: <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> You know, I've heard of loss and seen some incredible things. I've been apart of countless groups that just fade away... But to tell the truth, this is the only group I've been on that still has people who respond after months of inactivity... I guess it's our need to know somebody out there is still fighting against those insane officials out there... Score one for the little guys... thanks jamyang for the link about Freegate... kiss this Symantec... ...Alan jamyang@openflows.org wrote: >http://openflows.org/index.pl?section=analysis&subsection=27 > > >On Mon, 2004-10-11 at 22:11, IndianZ wrote: > > >>good to hear some voices in the dark ;-) >> >>GreetZ from IndianZ >> >>mailto:indianz@indianz.ch >>http://www.indianz.ch >> >> >> >> >>On Monday 11 October 2004 17.56, will taggart wrote: >> >> >>>Funny how this list just petered out after a few years...how long was >>>this active anyway, I remember 2000-2002 was fairly active, but still low >>>traffic. >>> >>>_____________________________________ >>>Will Taggart >>>Graduate Student >>>Science, Technology and Society >>>Massachusetts Institute of Technology >>>Mail: zen@mit.edu >>> >>>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Richard Bronson wrote: >>> >>> >>>>yours is the only posting I've seen in ages >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Alan Bounds >>>> >>>widdershins@attrition.org net> cc: (bcc: >>>>Richard Bronson/BNA Inc) Sent by: Subject: >>>>[widdershins] just curious... widdershins-bounces@at >>>> trition.org >>>> >>>> >>>> 10/11/2004 10:37 AM >>>> Please respond to >>>> widdershins >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>widdershins mailing list >>>>widdershins@attrition.org >>>>http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>widdershins mailing list >>>>widdershins@attrition.org >>>>http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>widdershins mailing list >>>widdershins@attrition.org >>>http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>widdershins mailing list >>widdershins@attrition.org >>http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >widdershins mailing list >widdershins@attrition.org >http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.attrition.org/pipermail/widdershins/attachments/20041011/2cf22eaf/attachment-0001.html From scott at urajah.net Mon Oct 11 21:43:23 2004 From: scott at urajah.net (Scott Sanders) Date: Mon Oct 11 21:48:22 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... Message-ID: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> I would move to Canada, only because I could sleep better at night knowing they have a highly advanced fleet of submarines protecting the borders. :) -Scott -----Original Message----- From: widdershins-bounces@attrition.org [mailto:widdershins-bounces@attrition.org] On Behalf Of hellNbak Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 8:34 AM To: widdershins@attrition.org Subject: Re: [widdershins] just curious... LOL Don't come up here to Canada. Look at the cluebags we have running things On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, B.K. DeLong wrote: > At 09:37 AM 10/11/2004 -0500, Alan Bounds wrote: >> is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or elsewhere > should Bush be reelected. > > > -- > B.K. DeLong > bkdelong@pobox.com > +1.617.797.2472 > > http://bkdelong.mit.edu Work. > http://www.brain-stream.com Play. > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. > http://www.city-of-doors.com Sigil. > http://www.hackerfoundation.org Future. > http://www.osvdb.org/ Security. > http://www.wkdelong.org Son. > > > PGP Fingerprint: > 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE > > FOAF: > http://foaf.brain-stream.org > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > _______________________________________________ widdershins mailing list widdershins@attrition.org http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From m.c.m.goemans at students.uu.nl Tue Oct 12 05:39:42 2004 From: m.c.m.goemans at students.uu.nl (Marc) Date: Tue Oct 12 05:47:49 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> Message-ID: <0I5G005VWTI5V6@smtp17.wxs.nl> To my knowledge it cuts you off if you don't visit the website once in a while. I haven't received mail for ages, visited widdershins yesterday and voila, you got mail;-) Big up big brother widdershins ROFL MarC -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: widdershins-bounces@attrition.org [mailto:widdershins-bounces@attrition.org] Namens jamyang Verzonden: maandag 11 oktober 2004 21:47 Aan: widdershins@attrition.org Onderwerp: Re: [widdershins] just curious... http://openflows.org/index.pl?section=analysis&subsection=27 On Mon, 2004-10-11 at 22:11, IndianZ wrote: > good to hear some voices in the dark ;-) > > GreetZ from IndianZ > > mailto:indianz@indianz.ch > http://www.indianz.ch > > > > > On Monday 11 October 2004 17.56, will taggart wrote: > > Funny how this list just petered out after a few years...how long > > was this active anyway, I remember 2000-2002 was fairly active, but > > still low traffic. > > > > _____________________________________ > > Will Taggart > > Graduate Student > > Science, Technology and Society > > Massachusetts Institute of Technology > > Mail: zen@mit.edu > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Richard Bronson wrote: > > > yours is the only posting I've seen in ages > > > > > > > > > > > > Alan Bounds > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org net> cc: (bcc: > > > Richard Bronson/BNA Inc) Sent by: Subject: > > > [widdershins] just curious... widdershins-bounces@at > > > trition.org > > > > > > > > > 10/11/2004 10:37 AM > > > Please respond to > > > widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > > _______________________________________________ > > > widdershins mailing list > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > widdershins mailing list > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > _______________________________________________ > > widdershins mailing list > > widdershins@attrition.org > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins _______________________________________________ widdershins mailing list widdershins@attrition.org http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From linlamer at cox.net Tue Oct 12 07:34:40 2004 From: linlamer at cox.net (drag sidious) Date: Tue Oct 12 07:42:22 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> References: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> Message-ID: <1097580858.4490.2.camel@localhost> I find it more interesting that after months of inactivity a single call in the dark gets a response that amounts to little more then political propaganda spam. Not that I am complaining. If Bush wins I hope that guy leaves the US too. Good riddance. :P On Mon, 2004-10-11 at 20:43, Scott Sanders wrote: > I would move to Canada, only because I could sleep better at night > knowing they have a highly advanced fleet of submarines protecting the > borders. :) > > -Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: widdershins-bounces@attrition.org > [mailto:widdershins-bounces@attrition.org] On Behalf Of hellNbak > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 8:34 AM > To: widdershins@attrition.org > Subject: Re: [widdershins] just curious... > > LOL > > Don't come up here to Canada. Look at the cluebags we have running > things > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, B.K. DeLong wrote: > > > At 09:37 AM 10/11/2004 -0500, Alan Bounds wrote: > >> is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > > > Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or elsewhere > > should Bush be reelected. > > > > > > -- > > B.K. DeLong > > bkdelong@pobox.com > > +1.617.797.2472 > > > > http://bkdelong.mit.edu Work. > > http://www.brain-stream.com Play. > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. > > http://www.city-of-doors.com Sigil. > > http://www.hackerfoundation.org Future. > > http://www.osvdb.org/ Security. > > http://www.wkdelong.org Son. > > > > > > PGP Fingerprint: > > 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE > > > > FOAF: > > http://foaf.brain-stream.org > > _______________________________________________ > > widdershins mailing list > > widdershins@attrition.org > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From gegohouse at gmx.at Tue Oct 12 08:40:03 2004 From: gegohouse at gmx.at (Gmx Private 01) Date: Tue Oct 12 08:47:39 2004 Subject: [widdershins] ...still curious... In-Reply-To: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> References: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> Message-ID: <509608864.20041012144003@gmx.at> Hey All... Widdershins was one of the first Mailing Lists I was on... It is fun to see so many people responding after such a long time : ) Cheers, g PS 2 Articles... as a start for a temporary reactivation... #### The Fear Factor John Horvath 26.08.2004 http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/18187/1.html European Security Research Programme: The business side to the war on terror In the beginning of August, the Department of Homeland Security in the US raised its terror alert from yellow (elevated) to orange (high), meaning there is a high risk of a terror attack. As a result, armed police with machine guns stood at barricades in front of designated buildings in places like New York and Washington. Not only are many Americans confused by the alert system established in the wake of 9/11 -- namely the various colour schemes and what they entail -- but many have also grown weary of the repeated warnings. Indeed, the reaction to the August alert was one of skepticism, in that it was widely suspected that the Bush administration used the terror alert for political advantage. Such skepticism subsequently gained a measure of credibility as it later emerged that much of the intelligence that the terror alert was based on was dated -- up to three years old. Tom Ridge, the head of Homeland Security, simply responded by saying that although the intelligence may have been dated, his department only recently received it. A new mega-industry of fear is emerging While this latest political fiasco in the US can be said to be symptomatic of the Bush administration, it goes without saying that politicians the world over have been, in one way or another, also taking advantage of the recent wave of fear generated by the war on terror (as opposed to the terror itself). In many ways, it's a replication of the Cold War, the only exception being that the "enemy" isn't a recognised state power. This, in turn, makes this second Cold War ambiguous and one with potentially no end in sight. While many are aware of the political implications to the war on terror, few realise how governments and big business have been turning paranoia into profits. A new mega-industry has emerged, and many governments are now turning their attention -- and money -- to it. Because threats are supposedly very fluid and unpredictable in today's world, security is regarded as not purely a military matter, but one which requires the pooling of resources -- intelligence, police, judicial, economic, financial, scientific, and diplomatic -- all under the umbrella of modern technology. Consequently, with the increasing flexibility and complexity of modern technology, many new discoveries inevitably span both civilian and military fields. In other words, a device originally developed for security purposes could have commercial spin-offs. It's this potential for developing dual-purpose killer-apps which have governments and big business ploughing funds into the fear industry. European security research As a result, in Europe a coherent strategy has been developed to coordinate all military and civilian research across the European Union (EU). This includes a billion-euro boost in research spending for security-related projects. Accordingly, EU member states will have their their security systems harmonised to create a single EU-wide security structure. This means networks to exchange information and run EU-wide crisis-management operations will be set up in addition to the coordination of all military, security, and civilian research. If all goes according to plan, a fully-fledged European Security Research Programme (ESRP) should be up and running in the EU by 2007. Unlike other research programmes adopted by the EU, this one would see governments more financially involved. The rationale for this is that since some of this research must be geared to government requirements and cannot be adapted for commercial use, up to 100% government funding may be needed. Moreover, in order not to be left behind, the ESRP's budget should match that of the Department of Homeland Security in the US. This would necessitate giving security research in the EU a boost of 1 billion euro per year. As with the defense industry, the fear industry is generally seen by pundits as good for industrial growth and the economy. Not only this, it's one of the few avenues of corporate welfare still left open to big business. What is more, with the increased sense of insecurity being peddled by politicians, it looks set to grow even further as technology is relied upon to detect and "neutralise" an increasing array of potential security threats. For the European Commission (EC) in particular, it's hoped that with its research experience and expertise in other fields such pharmaceuticals, biotechnology, and telecommunications, Europe will be able to soon develop a top-class security system that it can then sell to governments elsewhere. In order to get things moving for this new security programme, the EU General Affairs Council already agreed back in November 2003 to create an agency to promote research for future defense needs. Its remit was to set up rules and procedures and build networks between sponsors, companies, research centers, and "customers" in the run-up to the launch of the ESRP. The ultimate aim is to nurture technologies that could have both civilian and military uses. Consequently, at the end of June this year a preparatory action was launched by the EC, resulting in a submission of around 175 proposals. Just over 70% of the proposals relate to technical mission-related research projects, addressing a wide range of security topics such as situation awareness, protection of networked systems, protecting against terrorism, crisis management, and interoperability. The remaining proposals relate to supporting activities such as studies on security research road maps, identification of critical areas and understanding human factors, as well as technical feasibility studies, awareness, and best practice activities. The proposals were submitted from a variety of sources. It should come as no surprise that large industry was well represented (including the aeronautics, information and communications technology, system integrators, and defense sectors). Most proposals originated from the EU-15, but the EC also points to "important participation" from the new member states of Central and Eastern Europe. Security technology produces new problems and binds resources Although the EC considers the preparatory action a relative success, if the EU wishes to eventually fund the full version of the ESRP, many existing research programmes will have to pay in terms of decreased support and slashed budgets; others may have to be abandoned altogether. In order to justify such a drastic move, the EC's response is simple: current research planning fails to promote dual purpose technologies, thereby missing out on some of the potential industrial innovations that could bring benefits across the board. Despite the promises of more security, on the one hand, and economic growth, on the other, what is missing in the overall equation are the people in the middle -- the citizenry -- who are supposed to gain an increased sense of security. Unfortunately, much of what is proposed is actually quite controversial as there are unresolved issues of privacy and confidentiality which must be dealt with first. Take, for instance, the notion of "information fusion". Information fusion basically means the collection and collation of data from many sources in order to yield intelligence. Examples include gathering information from sources such as telephone calls, hotel registrations, and airline bookings to identify individuals who may pose a terrorist threat, or analysing hospital admissions and sales of pharmaceuticals to warn of an unfolding biological attack. The problem here is that the distinction between "work as prescribed" and "work as practised" is frequently overlooked. Another concern is that this massive security programme is being developed not so much as to guard against terrorist attack, but to suppress domestic opposition, such as the anti-globalisation movement. For many heads of government, there is little distinction between terrorism and protest. Indeed, some have even gone so far as to categorise protesters as terrorists. Rather than concentrating on the symptoms of terror using state-of-the-art security systems -- which in a few years will be redundant anyway as those bent on wreaking havoc will use either new technology or the innovative application of so-called "primitive" methods -- more effort and resources should be put into dealing with its underlying causes. International terrorism, organised crime, and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction are the three greatest fears Europeans have, this according to a recent EU poll. In particular, the set of threats governments the world over face are energy insecurity, nuclear proliferation, poverty, drought, and failed states. Given this, it's quite apparent that the problems facing the world today have more to do with the politics of colonialism and imperialism than with the need for a more robust security apparatus. Links Telepolis Artikel-URL: http://www.telepolis.de/english/inhalt/te/18187/1.html -------------------- Copyright ? 1996-2004. All Rights Reserved. Alle Rechte vorbehalten Heise Zeitschriften Verlag, Hannover #### Culture and Technology http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/konf/18168/1.html On the sunny side of life? Henrieke Schmidt 22.08.2004 In Sweden?s sun city, Karlstad, Internet researchers from some 30 countries surfed through the cultural specifics of the Web Karlstad, a idyllic small town in the Swedish Warmland (!), has the reputation of being the sunniest city of this Northern country: this makes it an especially appropriate place for a conference dedicated to the light and the dark sides of the global Internet. As a place in the virtual sun may still be considered a privilege, marginalization, homogenisation and hybridisation of culture(s) were at the heart of the debates. The motto of this 4th conference on "Cultural Attitudes Towards Technology and Communication" [1] was "Off the shelf or up from the ground" ? in consequence and with regard to the dissolving utopia of the "global village," the Internet researchers from about 30 countries focused on the differences, the potential conflicts and cultural discrepancies in cyberspace understood as a "urban metropolis" (Ess/Harvard). The tricky causalities ? the complex relationship between culture and technology In correspondence to the old question of "What Came First: the Chicken or the Egg?" the researchers? community set off in the quest for the causalities in the relationship between culture and technology. Minna Kamppura and Markku Tukiainen gave an overview of the definitions of culture used in a sample of research-papers on the topic and stated a remarkable deficit of adequate concepts. Nevertheless, all efforts taken in the first open discussion to compensate for this lack and to come to a precise and widely agreed on definition of "culture" turned out to be vain, which led to quite some frustration with the fluidity of the matter. Indeed, the title of the conference already reveals a weak point by opposing culture and technology, even though the latter is - at least as an artefact - always a product of culture. Wei Lu from China tried to offer a solution to the problem by presenting a "new model of technological evolution" intended to reconcile technological and cultural determinism in a process of reciprocal interaction. Even if this approach does not offer revolutionary insights, it nevertheless demonstrated ? to the end of the conference ? a turn away from linear explanatory models. This was of even more importance as throughout the conference linearity and causality had been the guiding principles, though already in one of the early presentations Maja van der Valden had postulated an equality of different models and patterns of knowledge. With regard to the fact that the conference was attended mostly by Internet researchers, this phenomenon is even more astonishing because the principle of linearity which is thought to be mainly valid for the western civilization was only some years ago seen to be threatened, if not simply overcome by hypertext! Logo of Karlstad University The same refers to the conference organization as a whole, which proved to be quite traditional. The presentations as well as the panels were characterized by a very strict and conventional structure. Likewise, the discussion of methodological approaches (Agourram/Saucier, W?rtz) was largely characterized by statistical and sociological research methods which are very useful but do not leave much room for alternative forms of presentation. Perhaps the most innovative solutions could be found in the panels dedicated to online education and e-learning and which concentrated on techniques and methods suitable to encourage collective forms of working, teaching and learning on the Net. Carnival of Cultures ? the Case Studies Fortunately, the participants did not resign, even though confronted with the lack of a consistent definition of their object, and turned ? in best practice of cultural studies ? to their case studies. With regard to the presented papers, it then turned out that ?culture? in most cases was understood as a conglomeration of national and ethnic characteristics. The "chineseness" of the Chinese Internet ? only on first view as a matter of course ? was discussed by H.-J. Bucher, who raised as well the issue of a "universalistic" versus a "particularistic perspective" which collide in the analysis of national and ethnic specifics in global media. Quite a number of papers were dedicated to the historically and culturally determined specifics of the adaptation of ICT in the post-soviet States of Middle Asia (Markova, Mei), in the Baltic republic Estonia (Vengerfeldt/Runnel) and in Russia (Voiskounsky, Schmidt). The influence of traditional patterns of behaviour on the political usage of the Internet in Japan (Nakada et al) was investigated into as well as the particular circumstances of ICT applications in Africa and South-America (Addison/Sirkissoon, Beardon, Miscione/Aizenberg, Rodrigues, et al). But maybe the most interesting contribution was made by a participant in one of the discussion sections, who expressed her concern regarding a possible relapse into cultural essentialism if the analysis of behaviour patterns in ICT were too tightly focused on an isolated investigation of national or ethnic groups. The idea of (re)searching cultural specifics on the global network is constantly threatened by the (re)production of cultural stereotypes. The Internet ? technology of domination or liberation philosophy? A special focus was laid on the investigation of the ICT access and usage by indigenous peoples (Herring/Estrada, Dyson, Kampf, Radoll). Questions of a gender-specific usage were discussed as well, though not as extensively (Crump, Simon). Against this background, the still contentious question was put forward whether the Internet is or is not a technology of domination reinforcing social discrimination rather than smoothing over existing discrepancies. The assembled research community admitted in a self-critical way its own privileged situation of inhabiting the sunny side of (net)life. In whose name and with whose voices can the question of a just use of Internet technologies ever be discussed, if at all? Concerning the popular rhetorics of a "digital divide" often referred to in this regard, it was stated that even this seemingly political correct metaphor is no longer adequate as it suggests the inferiority of off-line existence and implicitly discriminates local knowledge which may be incompatible with standards and norms of the Western information society. The problematics of ICT, (re)presentation and power were than illustrated on the basis of a significant number of case studies accentuating the pros and cons of ?development.? Thus ? for example - ritual collective artwork of Australian aborigines seems to be endangered by a second expropriation in the anonymous global data worlds (Radoll). On the other hand, a multi-lingual Internet could help to rescue small languages at the edge of extinction to survive in a kind of virtual reservoir (Herring/Estrada). The theoretical premises as well as some first propositions to smooth out the conflict of local interests and global norms were presented in different papers on the standardization of language, technology and jurisdiction on the Internet (Pargman/Palme), with a special focus on copyright (Adaime, Burk, Debnath/Bahl). "A hole in the (virtual) wall" ? unconventional forms of Internet usage Especially exciting were those presentations paying attention to alternative forms of Internet usage by the seemingly unprivileged and marginalized cultures: these focused not only on the advantages of Western ICT usage, but as well on its limitations which are often due to the perception of the media as a "normal" one. Thus the escape from spatially closed Internet-environments in South America or India, where the individual usage of ICT corresponds neither to the economic situation nor to the patterns of cultural behaviour, underlined the potential creativity of these non-conventional solutions (Rodrigues). A literal "Hole in the [virtual] Wall" describes a project of the same name initiated in India (Cappelle/Evers/Mitra): in some rural districts of India, computers with Internet access are installed in alcoves in the wall offering the village children access throughout the day. Mostly without any guidance and largely in self-controlled fashion, the children got acquainted in a playful way with computer and Internet technology and proved to be quite innovative: surfing and gaming turned out into a collective happening with dozens of children hanging around the computers, typing and drawing together. "Just use" ? a sunny vision? The conceptual orientation of the conference on "just use" of ICT resulted into a strongly normative attitude. The idea and the concept of "liberation philosophy" was astonishingly popular (Walker), in a deliberate contrast to more sceptical approaches concerning the emancipatory potential of ICT which were expressed even in sunny Karlstad. With regard to the ongoing Internet pessimism which, by stressing the threats of terrorism and globalisation, achieves sometimes of an even apocalyptic dimension ? a good portion of sunny visions may well be a important ingredient to further Internet studies (McIlroy, Ess/Sudweeks). Further information The CATaC-conference series started in 1998 and are organized by Charles Ess (Drury University, USA) and Fay Sudweeks (Murdoch University, Australia). A discussion-list [2] offers a forum for announcements and discussion of further activities and planned publications. The contributions to the actual conference are published in the conference proceedings: Ess, Charles / Sudweeks, Fay (Ed.) (2004): Cultural attitudes towards Technology and Communication 2004. Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on Cultural Attitudes towards Technology and Communication, Karlstad, Sweden, 27 June ? 1 July 2004. Murdoch University, Murdoch. Henrike Schmidt is a researcher at the Institute of Russian and Soviet Culture at the Ruhr-University, Bochum (Germany), and is currently working on a joint research program [3] on "Cultural identity performances on the Russian Internet" (with Katy Teubener, Institute of sociology, University of M?nster), funded by the VolkswagenStiftung (Germany). Links [1] http://www.it.murdoch.edu.au/catac [2] http://www.it.murdoch.edu.au/catac [3] http://www.russian-cyberspace.org Telepolis Artikel-URL: http://www.telepolis.de/english/inhalt/konf/18168/1.html -------------------- Copyright ? 1996-2004. All Rights Reserved. Alle Rechte vorbehalten Heise Zeitschriften Verlag, Hannover From gegohouse at gmx.at Tue Oct 12 08:44:32 2004 From: gegohouse at gmx.at (Gmx Private 01) Date: Tue Oct 12 08:52:15 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Turning the tables on Big Brother? In-Reply-To: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> References: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> Message-ID: <1178976367.20041012144432@gmx.at> Turning the tables on Big Brother? John Horvath 19.07.2004 Is it possible to use technology to counter the erosion of privacy in our post 9/11 world? Before 9/11, many were already worried about the potential of computers and the Internet to erode personal privacy. That's still an issue, but new state powers of surveillance to combat so-called "terrorism" at home have now made matters a lot worse. The events of September 2001 made the tilt in the balance between security and personal privacy more visible. These new attitudes are especially noticeable in the US, where privacy traditionally takes second place to freedom of commerce. However, within Europe member states of the European Union (EU) have also strengthened their defenses through collecting and sharing more personal information. Thus, greater snooping powers for the state have added to concerns about the erosion of privacy, many of which previously related to the private sector alone. Take, for example, America's proposed CAPPS II, a law which represents a scary example of the extent to which a government seeks control. According to this law, all airline passengers would be screened and their records would be checked against the FBI's NCIC (National Crime Information Center) database -- which, ironically, is exempt from requirements to ensure that its contents are accurate. While we may bemoan the relative security and freedom we felt prior to the advent of the Third Millennium, it must be kept in mind that concern about computers and privacy is not new. Large scale government data collection first became possible in the 1970s. State surveillance to counter terrorism is not new, either. The events of September 2001 may have strengthened government mandates to use intrusive security measures that citizens previously might not have tolerated, but many of these seemingly "new measures" had previously been under discussion. Unfortunately, democracy is in decline in most parts of the western world; hence, the ability to undo the mess that politicians have made is severely restricted. Since it's no longer possible to change the system by simple political means, some have been looking to technology as a way to help and restore the balance that it, ironically, had disturbed in the first place. Along these lines, what has been proposed is to use technology in such a way that unites security with privacy. There are three main areas in which technology can be used to this extent. The first is what is known as "identity-related technologies". These are tools that help to identify ourselves in much the same way as passports and driving licenses validate us in the physical world. Central to this is the concept of Identity Management Systems (IMSs), which can be either under the user's direct control (on a PC or a mobile phone, for example) or based in a centralised location. Identification technologies include virtual identification processes, such as passwords and digital signatures, as well as physical tags like iris recognition, fingerprints, and even surgically implanted chips. The second type of identity technology is known as "location-based services". These relate mainly to the ability of mobile phones to identify the geographical movements of their users, though radio tags and satellite navigation systems will also play a part. Emergency services as well as concerned parents are already using this technology, and tracking accuracy is continually improving. Finally, the third area, "ambient intelligence space", refers to the ability of tomorrow's networked and sensor-laden environments to identify, track, and respond to individual people. Smart homes and offices, for instance, could control computer displays and open doors for people who have been identified and authorised through radio tags or surveillance cameras. Although these three areas seem to provide an alternative to the brute security measures now in place throughout the US and the EU, they are by no means foolproof and, in the final analysis, do little to redress the privacy concerns of individuals. Identity-related technologies have already been implemented in many areas; their main weakness is in the structure of centralised systems, for such systems are open to abuse. Moreover, IMSs actually differ little from what is already being done in the US and the EU through existing centralised databases. There is little or no transparency on how the stored information is handled, and to whom and when it is shared. As for location-based services, tracking accuracy constantly improves along with nefarious uses of the technology. Furthermore, a line is blurred between the notion of "tracking" and control. If the wish of some diehard enthusiasts of the technology is ever realised -- that is, we shall all have surgically implanted chips to track our movements starting from childhood (under the guise of child protection) -- this will no doubt exceed the bounds of present surveillance systems in place within both the US and the EU. Lastly, ambient intelligence spaces do little to help and restore a sense of privacy. As spaces become increasingly networked, there is a loss of distinction between what can be defined as a public space and a private area. Hence, the resulting blurring of the boundaries between personal and public spaces would require careful legal and technical control; however, given the present obsession with fighting terrorism at home and abroad, such a balance is highly unlikely to be achieved. In the end, Big Brother has little to worry about as the technology to help restore a sense of privacy is unlikely to redress the balance that had been lost over the past few years. New technologies can improve the quality of life, but they are not foolproof. Computerised systems are only as reliable as the people who run them. Even the tightest security controls may be undermined through social engineering or human negligence. One just has to look at the enigma of spam and the plague of computer viruses to see how fallible such technologies really are. Links Telepolis Artikel-URL: http://www.telepolis.de/english/inhalt/te/17893/1.html -------------------- Copyright ? 1996-2004. All Rights Reserved. Alle Rechte vorbehalten Heise Zeitschriften Verlag, Hannover From drgero at roboresistance.net Tue Oct 12 10:20:25 2004 From: drgero at roboresistance.net (Doktor Gero) Date: Tue Oct 12 10:37:44 2004 Subject: [widdershins] widdershins alternatives Message-ID: any alternatives? grz From jamyang at openflows.org Tue Oct 12 11:58:39 2004 From: jamyang at openflows.org (jamyang) Date: Tue Oct 12 12:01:28 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> Message-ID: <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> http://openflows.org/index.pl?section=analysis&subsection=9 INDYMEDIA Servers Confiscated by FBI in London Home Secretary David Blunkett challenged over Indymedia website closures US seizes independent media sites!: Indymedia reports on the alter-globalisation movement The FBI has shut down some 20 sites which were part of an alternative media network known as Indymedia. Stefania Milan, LONDON, Oct 9 (IPS) - Agents from the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on Thursday seized two Internet servers in Britain that host the web sites of the global news network Indymedia. Two days later there was still no clarification of why the computers were confiscated or who is holding them. The confiscation came just days before the European Social Forum, the region's major civil society gathering, in which Indymedia is to have strong presence. On Tue, 2004-10-12 at 01:49, Alan Bounds wrote: > You know, I've heard of loss and seen some incredible things. > I've been apart of countless groups that just fade away... But > to tell the truth, this is the only group I've been on that still has > people who respond after months of inactivity... I guess it's our > need to know somebody out there is still fighting against those > insane officials out there... Score one for the little guys... thanks > jamyang for the link about Freegate... kiss this Symantec... > ...Alan > > jamyang@openflows.org wrote: > > http://openflows.org/index.pl?section=analysis&subsection=27 > > > > > > On Mon, 2004-10-11 at 22:11, IndianZ wrote: > > > > > good to hear some voices in the dark ;-) > > > > > > GreetZ from IndianZ > > > > > > mailto:indianz@indianz.ch > > > http://www.indianz.ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday 11 October 2004 17.56, will taggart wrote: > > > > > > > Funny how this list just petered out after a few years...how long was > > > > this active anyway, I remember 2000-2002 was fairly active, but still low > > > > traffic. > > > > > > > > _____________________________________ > > > > Will Taggart > > > > Graduate Student > > > > Science, Technology and Society > > > > Massachusetts Institute of Technology > > > > Mail: zen@mit.edu > > > > > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Richard Bronson wrote: > > > > > > > > > yours is the only posting I've seen in ages > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alan Bounds > > > > > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org net> cc: (bcc: > > > > > Richard Bronson/BNA Inc) Sent by: Subject: > > > > > [widdershins] just curious... widdershins-bounces@at > > > > > trition.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10/11/2004 10:37 AM > > > > > Please respond to > > > > > widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > widdershins mailing list > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > widdershins mailing list > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > widdershins mailing list > > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > widdershins mailing list > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > widdershins mailing list > > widdershins@attrition.org > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From hellnbak at nmrc.org Tue Oct 12 14:26:53 2004 From: hellnbak at nmrc.org (hellNbak) Date: Tue Oct 12 14:35:48 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> References: <0054393302E34647B16F6CB5B9F8782845E3@apollo.urajah.net> Message-ID: Yeah, the clouds of smoke from the hull will blind would be attackers who attempt to come ashore. On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Scott Sanders wrote: > I would move to Canada, only because I could sleep better at night > knowing they have a highly advanced fleet of submarines protecting the > borders. :) > > -Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: widdershins-bounces@attrition.org > [mailto:widdershins-bounces@attrition.org] On Behalf Of hellNbak > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 8:34 AM > To: widdershins@attrition.org > Subject: Re: [widdershins] just curious... > > LOL > > Don't come up here to Canada. Look at the cluebags we have running > things > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, B.K. DeLong wrote: > >> At 09:37 AM 10/11/2004 -0500, Alan Bounds wrote: >>> is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? >> >> Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or elsewhere >> should Bush be reelected. >> >> >> -- >> B.K. DeLong >> bkdelong@pobox.com >> +1.617.797.2472 >> >> http://bkdelong.mit.edu Work. >> http://www.brain-stream.com Play. >> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. >> http://www.city-of-doors.com Sigil. >> http://www.hackerfoundation.org Future. >> http://www.osvdb.org/ Security. >> http://www.wkdelong.org Son. >> >> >> PGP Fingerprint: >> 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE >> >> FOAF: >> http://foaf.brain-stream.org >> _______________________________________________ >> widdershins mailing list >> widdershins@attrition.org >> http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins >> > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > From linlamer at cox.net Tue Oct 12 16:28:01 2004 From: linlamer at cox.net (drag sidious) Date: Tue Oct 12 16:35:43 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> Message-ID: <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> I'd just like to point out that the FBI was just serving a subpoena that was issued on behalf of Italian and Swiss authorities. http://www.indymedia.be/news/2004/10/88768.php They were compeled to do this thru international treaty. So if you want to get all pissy about squishing freedom of speach pointn your fingers at the Swiss and Italian governments, not the FBI. In this case the FBI were just acting as police force, carrying out the order of the court. Suppossedly this seizure was done because people were trying to use Indymedia servers to publish pictures of undercover Swiss agents, which apperently is illegal. On Tue, 2004-10-12 at 10:58, jamyang wrote: http://openflows.org/index.pl?section=analysis&subsection=9 > > INDYMEDIA Servers Confiscated by FBI in London > > Home Secretary David Blunkett challenged over Indymedia website closures > > US seizes independent media sites!: > Indymedia reports on the alter-globalisation movement > > The FBI has shut down some 20 sites which were part of an alternative > media network known as Indymedia. > > Stefania Milan, LONDON, Oct 9 (IPS) - Agents from the U.S. Federal > Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on Thursday seized two Internet servers in > Britain that host the web sites of the global news network Indymedia. > Two days later there was still no clarification of why the computers > were confiscated or who is holding them. > > The confiscation came just days before the European Social Forum, the > region's major civil society gathering, in which Indymedia is to have > strong presence. > > > > > On Tue, 2004-10-12 at 01:49, Alan Bounds wrote: > > You know, I've heard of loss and seen some incredible things. > > I've been apart of countless groups that just fade away... But > > to tell the truth, this is the only group I've been on that still has > > people who respond after months of inactivity... I guess it's our > > need to know somebody out there is still fighting against those > > insane officials out there... Score one for the little guys... thanks > > jamyang for the link about Freegate... kiss this Symantec... > > ...Alan > > > > jamyang@openflows.org wrote: > > > http://openflows.org/index.pl?section=analysis&subsection=27 > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2004-10-11 at 22:11, IndianZ wrote: > > > > > > > good to hear some voices in the dark ;-) > > > > > > > > GreetZ from IndianZ > > > > > > > > mailto:indianz@indianz.ch > > > > http://www.indianz.ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday 11 October 2004 17.56, will taggart wrote: > > > > > > > > > Funny how this list just petered out after a few years...how long was > > > > > this active anyway, I remember 2000-2002 was fairly active, but still low > > > > > traffic. > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________ > > > > > Will Taggart > > > > > Graduate Student > > > > > Science, Technology and Society > > > > > Massachusetts Institute of Technology > > > > > Mail: zen@mit.edu > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Richard Bronson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > yours is the only posting I've seen in ages > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alan Bounds > > > > > > > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org net> cc: (bcc: > > > > > > Richard Bronson/BNA Inc) Sent by: Subject: > > > > > > [widdershins] just curious... widdershins-bounces@at > > > > > > trition.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10/11/2004 10:37 AM > > > > > > Please respond to > > > > > > widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > widdershins mailing list > > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > widdershins mailing list > > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > widdershins mailing list > > > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > widdershins mailing list > > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > widdershins mailing list > > > widdershins@attrition.org > > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > widdershins mailing list > > widdershins@attrition.org > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From jericho at attrition.org Tue Oct 12 16:55:51 2004 From: jericho at attrition.org (security curmudgeon) Date: Tue Oct 12 16:55:54 2004 Subject: [widdershins] widdershins alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: : any alternatives? Yes.. post to the list and get discussion going again. =) From madsaxon at direcway.com Tue Oct 12 17:44:04 2004 From: madsaxon at direcway.com (madsaxon) Date: Tue Oct 12 17:51:40 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> At 03:28 PM 10/12/2004, drag sidious wrote: >Suppossedly this seizure was done because people were trying to use >Indymedia servers to publish pictures of undercover Swiss agents, which >apperently is illegal. Fine, but why wouldn't they let Indymedia in on this simple fact? If you're going to accuse someone of harboring criminal behavior, you could at least tell them what crime they're supposedly committing or abetting. m5x From figueroa at ellijay.com Tue Oct 12 18:46:53 2004 From: figueroa at ellijay.com (Ed Figueroa) Date: Tue Oct 12 18:49:58 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why am I getting these e-mails, I never subscribed to them? Ed -----Original Message----- From: widdershins-bounces@attrition.org [mailto:widdershins-bounces@attrition.org]On Behalf Of hellNbak Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 2:27 PM To: widdershins@attrition.org Subject: RE: [widdershins] just curious... Yeah, the clouds of smoke from the hull will blind would be attackers who attempt to come ashore. On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Scott Sanders wrote: > I would move to Canada, only because I could sleep better at night > knowing they have a highly advanced fleet of submarines protecting the > borders. :) > > -Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: widdershins-bounces@attrition.org > [mailto:widdershins-bounces@attrition.org] On Behalf Of hellNbak > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 8:34 AM > To: widdershins@attrition.org > Subject: Re: [widdershins] just curious... > > LOL > > Don't come up here to Canada. Look at the cluebags we have running > things > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, B.K. DeLong wrote: > >> At 09:37 AM 10/11/2004 -0500, Alan Bounds wrote: >>> is this forum inactive? or have i simply been cut off? >> >> Us US Citizens are busy making plans to move to Canada or elsewhere >> should Bush be reelected. >> >> >> -- >> B.K. DeLong >> bkdelong@pobox.com >> +1.617.797.2472 >> >> http://bkdelong.mit.edu Work. >> http://www.brain-stream.com Play. >> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. >> http://www.city-of-doors.com Sigil. >> http://www.hackerfoundation.org Future. >> http://www.osvdb.org/ Security. >> http://www.wkdelong.org Son. >> >> >> PGP Fingerprint: >> 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE >> >> FOAF: >> http://foaf.brain-stream.org >> _______________________________________________ >> widdershins mailing list >> widdershins@attrition.org >> http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins >> > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > _______________________________________________ widdershins mailing list widdershins@attrition.org http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From linlamer at cox.net Tue Oct 12 18:47:37 2004 From: linlamer at cox.net (drag sidious) Date: Tue Oct 12 18:55:13 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> Message-ID: <1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost> Well if your going to end up arresting someone or convicting them of something or other then yes you HAVE to tell them what the charges are. But this wasn't a supoena against Indymedia, this was a supoena against Rackspace. see for definition of supoena: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s083.htm So what that is is that Rackspace is being called to submit documents in a ongoing investigation. If they ignore the court order or whatever they will be held in contempt of court. It's like if they are doing a investigation against a money laudering sceme and need to get bank records, so they issue a subpeona and the bank is compeled to release the documentation to the court. In this case the docuementation the court is looking for is one the physical media of the harddrive itself. In a ongoing investigation the police do not have to tell you what is going on. It's when they go to arrest you that's when they have to let you in on everything and tell you the charges and the hows and the why's behind what they are doing. That's my understanding of the situation. You could argue that the data was Indymedia's property and it wasn't up to Rackspace to submit it and that the subpeona should of been against Indymedia itself. But so far it seems that once you put data on somebody else's server it becomes the responsibility of that person. That's the way things are going. Makes sense in a certain way. Say you left a bunch of documents over my house in my possession that the FBI wanted to see. Would they issue a subpeona to me? or to you? I am not a lawyer or anything and I would like to have any clarification on any missunderstandings I may have, definately. Stuff like this takes time, we are still dealing with a legal framework that is built over a century ago... Indymedia will probably be told what exactly is going on. If nothing happens then eventually Indymedia's lawyers will find out the details behind it and probably a press statement will be issued. But it probably won't be months from now. This is something to keep a close eye on, though. Especially if your going to involve yourself in international law and politics. One thing that I do find disturbing though is how FBI is able to compel people in london to surrender documentation. Maybe they could of fought it, maybe not. I don't know. The lowering of legal boundries between countries is a bad thing, IMO. I live in the US. I have a hard time enough dealing with my own government without having to also submit myself to the EU or China's government myself. I can do and say things in this country that would get me arrested in countries with lesser garentees on free speech, such as Germany or France. Stuff that. I am not convinced though that this was a attempt to shutdown Indymedia or intimidate them to silence or anything like that. What is stopping them from restoring from backups and running their servers under a different company? If they don't keep their own backups, then they are stupid anyways. (What if those HD's failed instead of being seized?) I can understand why the FBI/Courts wanted the HD's themselves immediately. If someone that had information to protect found out what was going on thru a third party, they could maybe do a "rm -rf *" and try to stop them from recovering the information. Still, If I were Indymedia I would be pissed right now. I'd be doing everything I can to find out exactly what is going on, definately. On Tue, 2004-10-12 at 16:44, madsaxon wrote: > At 03:28 PM 10/12/2004, drag sidious wrote: > > > >Suppossedly this seizure was done because people were trying to use > >Indymedia servers to publish pictures of undercover Swiss agents, which > >apperently is illegal. > > Fine, but why wouldn't they let Indymedia in on this simple fact? > If you're going to accuse someone of harboring criminal behavior, > you could at least tell them what crime they're supposedly committing > or abetting. > > m5x > > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From jericho at attrition.org Tue Oct 12 18:58:23 2004 From: jericho at attrition.org (security curmudgeon) Date: Tue Oct 12 18:58:25 2004 Subject: [widdershins] just curious... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: : Why am I getting these e-mails, I never subscribed to them? The system that runs this mail list requires not only opt-in, but requires a confirmation after email is sent to you. The odds of someone subscribing you are very slim. Odds are you did subscribe as long as a year or two ago and forgot due to the list traffic being dead for some time. From ben at adversary.org Wed Oct 13 02:15:55 2004 From: ben at adversary.org (Ben McGinnes) Date: Wed Oct 13 02:23:33 2004 Subject: [widdershins] anyone in Arizona? Message-ID: <20041013161555.B1979@devious.adversary.org> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/12/bush_wireless_coaching/ The last Presidential debate is in Tempe, Arizona very soon ... anyone planning on following the suggestion in this article? If so, tell us *after* the debate with a recording of any wireless coaching for Dubya. ;) Regards, Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.attrition.org/pipermail/widdershins/attachments/20041013/d86c33ad/attachment.bin From jesterhoax at westnet.com.au Wed Oct 13 05:50:53 2004 From: jesterhoax at westnet.com.au (jesterhoax) Date: Wed Oct 13 05:59:11 2004 Subject: [widdershins] ...still curious... In-Reply-To: <509608864.20041012144003@gmx.at> Message-ID: <20041013095117.57A2111B146@vscan02.westnet.com.au> *pokes* from Perth Australia -----Original Message----- From: widdershins-bounces@attrition.org [mailto:widdershins-bounces@attrition.org] On Behalf Of Gmx Private 01 Sent: Tuesday, 12 October 2004 8:40 PM To: widdershins@attrition.org Subject: [widdershins] ...still curious... Hey All... Widdershins was one of the first Mailing Lists I was on... It is fun to see so many people responding after such a long time : ) Cheers, g PS 2 Articles... as a start for a temporary reactivation... #### The Fear Factor John Horvath 26.08.2004 http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/18187/1.html European Security Research Programme: The business side to the war on terror In the beginning of August, the Department of Homeland Security in the US raised its terror alert from yellow (elevated) to orange (high), meaning there is a high risk of a terror attack. As a result, armed police with machine guns stood at barricades in front of designated buildings in places like New York and Washington. Not only are many Americans confused by the alert system established in the wake of 9/11 -- namely the various colour schemes and what they entail -- but many have also grown weary of the repeated warnings. Indeed, the reaction to the August alert was one of skepticism, in that it was widely suspected that the Bush administration used the terror alert for political advantage. Such skepticism subsequently gained a measure of credibility as it later emerged that much of the intelligence that the terror alert was based on was dated -- up to three years old. Tom Ridge, the head of Homeland Security, simply responded by saying that although the intelligence may have been dated, his department only recently received it. A new mega-industry of fear is emerging While this latest political fiasco in the US can be said to be symptomatic of the Bush administration, it goes without saying that politicians the world over have been, in one way or another, also taking advantage of the recent wave of fear generated by the war on terror (as opposed to the terror itself). In many ways, it's a replication of the Cold War, the only exception being that the "enemy" isn't a recognised state power. This, in turn, makes this second Cold War ambiguous and one with potentially no end in sight. While many are aware of the political implications to the war on terror, few realise how governments and big business have been turning paranoia into profits. A new mega-industry has emerged, and many governments are now turning their attention -- and money -- to it. Because threats are supposedly very fluid and unpredictable in today's world, security is regarded as not purely a military matter, but one which requires the pooling of resources -- intelligence, police, judicial, economic, financial, scientific, and diplomatic -- all under the umbrella of modern technology. Consequently, with the increasing flexibility and complexity of modern technology, many new discoveries inevitably span both civilian and military fields. In other words, a device originally developed for security purposes could have commercial spin-offs. It's this potential for developing dual-purpose killer-apps which have governments and big business ploughing funds into the fear industry. European security research As a result, in Europe a coherent strategy has been developed to coordinate all military and civilian research across the European Union (EU). This includes a billion-euro boost in research spending for security-related projects. Accordingly, EU member states will have their their security systems harmonised to create a single EU-wide security structure. This means networks to exchange information and run EU-wide crisis-management operations will be set up in addition to the coordination of all military, security, and civilian research. If all goes according to plan, a fully-fledged European Security Research Programme (ESRP) should be up and running in the EU by 2007. Unlike other research programmes adopted by the EU, this one would see governments more financially involved. The rationale for this is that since some of this research must be geared to government requirements and cannot be adapted for commercial use, up to 100% government funding may be needed. Moreover, in order not to be left behind, the ESRP's budget should match that of the Department of Homeland Security in the US. This would necessitate giving security research in the EU a boost of 1 billion euro per year. As with the defense industry, the fear industry is generally seen by pundits as good for industrial growth and the economy. Not only this, it's one of the few avenues of corporate welfare still left open to big business. What is more, with the increased sense of insecurity being peddled by politicians, it looks set to grow even further as technology is relied upon to detect and "neutralise" an increasing array of potential security threats. For the European Commission (EC) in particular, it's hoped that with its research experience and expertise in other fields such pharmaceuticals, biotechnology, and telecommunications, Europe will be able to soon develop a top-class security system that it can then sell to governments elsewhere. In order to get things moving for this new security programme, the EU General Affairs Council already agreed back in November 2003 to create an agency to promote research for future defense needs. Its remit was to set up rules and procedures and build networks between sponsors, companies, research centers, and "customers" in the run-up to the launch of the ESRP. The ultimate aim is to nurture technologies that could have both civilian and military uses. Consequently, at the end of June this year a preparatory action was launched by the EC, resulting in a submission of around 175 proposals. Just over 70% of the proposals relate to technical mission-related research projects, addressing a wide range of security topics such as situation awareness, protection of networked systems, protecting against terrorism, crisis management, and interoperability. The remaining proposals relate to supporting activities such as studies on security research road maps, identification of critical areas and understanding human factors, as well as technical feasibility studies, awareness, and best practice activities. The proposals were submitted from a variety of sources. It should come as no surprise that large industry was well represented (including the aeronautics, information and communications technology, system integrators, and defense sectors). Most proposals originated from the EU-15, but the EC also points to "important participation" from the new member states of Central and Eastern Europe. Security technology produces new problems and binds resources Although the EC considers the preparatory action a relative success, if the EU wishes to eventually fund the full version of the ESRP, many existing research programmes will have to pay in terms of decreased support and slashed budgets; others may have to be abandoned altogether. In order to justify such a drastic move, the EC's response is simple: current research planning fails to promote dual purpose technologies, thereby missing out on some of the potential industrial innovations that could bring benefits across the board. Despite the promises of more security, on the one hand, and economic growth, on the other, what is missing in the overall equation are the people in the middle -- the citizenry -- who are supposed to gain an increased sense of security. Unfortunately, much of what is proposed is actually quite controversial as there are unresolved issues of privacy and confidentiality which must be dealt with first. Take, for instance, the notion of "information fusion". Information fusion basically means the collection and collation of data from many sources in order to yield intelligence. Examples include gathering information from sources such as telephone calls, hotel registrations, and airline bookings to identify individuals who may pose a terrorist threat, or analysing hospital admissions and sales of pharmaceuticals to warn of an unfolding biological attack. The problem here is that the distinction between "work as prescribed" and "work as practised" is frequently overlooked. Another concern is that this massive security programme is being developed not so much as to guard against terrorist attack, but to suppress domestic opposition, such as the anti-globalisation movement. For many heads of government, there is little distinction between terrorism and protest. Indeed, some have even gone so far as to categorise protesters as terrorists. Rather than concentrating on the symptoms of terror using state-of-the-art security systems -- which in a few years will be redundant anyway as those bent on wreaking havoc will use either new technology or the innovative application of so-called "primitive" methods -- more effort and resources should be put into dealing with its underlying causes. International terrorism, organised crime, and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction are the three greatest fears Europeans have, this according to a recent EU poll. In particular, the set of threats governments the world over face are energy insecurity, nuclear proliferation, poverty, drought, and failed states. Given this, it's quite apparent that the problems facing the world today have more to do with the politics of colonialism and imperialism than with the need for a more robust security apparatus. Links Telepolis Artikel-URL: http://www.telepolis.de/english/inhalt/te/18187/1.html -------------------- Copyright ? 1996-2004. All Rights Reserved. Alle Rechte vorbehalten Heise Zeitschriften Verlag, Hannover #### Culture and Technology http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/konf/18168/1.html On the sunny side of life? Henrieke Schmidt 22.08.2004 In Sweden?s sun city, Karlstad, Internet researchers from some 30 countries surfed through the cultural specifics of the Web Karlstad, a idyllic small town in the Swedish Warmland (!), has the reputation of being the sunniest city of this Northern country: this makes it an especially appropriate place for a conference dedicated to the light and the dark sides of the global Internet. As a place in the virtual sun may still be considered a privilege, marginalization, homogenisation and hybridisation of culture(s) were at the heart of the debates. The motto of this 4th conference on "Cultural Attitudes Towards Technology and Communication" [1] was "Off the shelf or up from the ground" ? in consequence and with regard to the dissolving utopia of the "global village," the Internet researchers from about 30 countries focused on the differences, the potential conflicts and cultural discrepancies in cyberspace understood as a "urban metropolis" (Ess/Harvard). The tricky causalities ? the complex relationship between culture and technology In correspondence to the old question of "What Came First: the Chicken or the Egg?" the researchers? community set off in the quest for the causalities in the relationship between culture and technology. Minna Kamppura and Markku Tukiainen gave an overview of the definitions of culture used in a sample of research-papers on the topic and stated a remarkable deficit of adequate concepts. Nevertheless, all efforts taken in the first open discussion to compensate for this lack and to come to a precise and widely agreed on definition of "culture" turned out to be vain, which led to quite some frustration with the fluidity of the matter. Indeed, the title of the conference already reveals a weak point by opposing culture and technology, even though the latter is - at least as an artefact - always a product of culture. Wei Lu from China tried to offer a solution to the problem by presenting a "new model of technological evolution" intended to reconcile technological and cultural determinism in a process of reciprocal interaction. Even if this approach does not offer revolutionary insights, it nevertheless demonstrated ? to the end of the conference ? a turn away from linear explanatory models. This was of even more importance as throughout the conference linearity and causality had been the guiding principles, though already in one of the early presentations Maja van der Valden had postulated an equality of different models and patterns of knowledge. With regard to the fact that the conference was attended mostly by Internet researchers, this phenomenon is even more astonishing because the principle of linearity which is thought to be mainly valid for the western civilization was only some years ago seen to be threatened, if not simply overcome by hypertext! Logo of Karlstad University The same refers to the conference organization as a whole, which proved to be quite traditional. The presentations as well as the panels were characterized by a very strict and conventional structure. Likewise, the discussion of methodological approaches (Agourram/Saucier, W?rtz) was largely characterized by statistical and sociological research methods which are very useful but do not leave much room for alternative forms of presentation. Perhaps the most innovative solutions could be found in the panels dedicated to online education and e-learning and which concentrated on techniques and methods suitable to encourage collective forms of working, teaching and learning on the Net. Carnival of Cultures ? the Case Studies Fortunately, the participants did not resign, even though confronted with the lack of a consistent definition of their object, and turned ? in best practice of cultural studies ? to their case studies. With regard to the presented papers, it then turned out that ?culture? in most cases was understood as a conglomeration of national and ethnic characteristics. The "chineseness" of the Chinese Internet ? only on first view as a matter of course ? was discussed by H.-J. Bucher, who raised as well the issue of a "universalistic" versus a "particularistic perspective" which collide in the analysis of national and ethnic specifics in global media. Quite a number of papers were dedicated to the historically and culturally determined specifics of the adaptation of ICT in the post-soviet States of Middle Asia (Markova, Mei), in the Baltic republic Estonia (Vengerfeldt/Runnel) and in Russia (Voiskounsky, Schmidt). The influence of traditional patterns of behaviour on the political usage of the Internet in Japan (Nakada et al) was investigated into as well as the particular circumstances of ICT applications in Africa and South-America (Addison/Sirkissoon, Beardon, Miscione/Aizenberg, Rodrigues, et al). But maybe the most interesting contribution was made by a participant in one of the discussion sections, who expressed her concern regarding a possible relapse into cultural essentialism if the analysis of behaviour patterns in ICT were too tightly focused on an isolated investigation of national or ethnic groups. The idea of (re)searching cultural specifics on the global network is constantly threatened by the (re)production of cultural stereotypes. The Internet ? technology of domination or liberation philosophy? A special focus was laid on the investigation of the ICT access and usage by indigenous peoples (Herring/Estrada, Dyson, Kampf, Radoll). Questions of a gender-specific usage were discussed as well, though not as extensively (Crump, Simon). Against this background, the still contentious question was put forward whether the Internet is or is not a technology of domination reinforcing social discrimination rather than smoothing over existing discrepancies. The assembled research community admitted in a self-critical way its own privileged situation of inhabiting the sunny side of (net)life. In whose name and with whose voices can the question of a just use of Internet technologies ever be discussed, if at all? Concerning the popular rhetorics of a "digital divide" often referred to in this regard, it was stated that even this seemingly political correct metaphor is no longer adequate as it suggests the inferiority of off-line existence and implicitly discriminates local knowledge which may be incompatible with standards and norms of the Western information society. The problematics of ICT, (re)presentation and power were than illustrated on the basis of a significant number of case studies accentuating the pros and cons of ?development.? Thus ? for example - ritual collective artwork of Australian aborigines seems to be endangered by a second expropriation in the anonymous global data worlds (Radoll). On the other hand, a multi-lingual Internet could help to rescue small languages at the edge of extinction to survive in a kind of virtual reservoir (Herring/Estrada). The theoretical premises as well as some first propositions to smooth out the conflict of local interests and global norms were presented in different papers on the standardization of language, technology and jurisdiction on the Internet (Pargman/Palme), with a special focus on copyright (Adaime, Burk, Debnath/Bahl). "A hole in the (virtual) wall" ? unconventional forms of Internet usage Especially exciting were those presentations paying attention to alternative forms of Internet usage by the seemingly unprivileged and marginalized cultures: these focused not only on the advantages of Western ICT usage, but as well on its limitations which are often due to the perception of the media as a "normal" one. Thus the escape from spatially closed Internet-environments in South America or India, where the individual usage of ICT corresponds neither to the economic situation nor to the patterns of cultural behaviour, underlined the potential creativity of these non-conventional solutions (Rodrigues). A literal "Hole in the [virtual] Wall" describes a project of the same name initiated in India (Cappelle/Evers/Mitra): in some rural districts of India, computers with Internet access are installed in alcoves in the wall offering the village children access throughout the day. Mostly without any guidance and largely in self-controlled fashion, the children got acquainted in a playful way with computer and Internet technology and proved to be quite innovative: surfing and gaming turned out into a collective happening with dozens of children hanging around the computers, typing and drawing together. "Just use" ? a sunny vision? The conceptual orientation of the conference on "just use" of ICT resulted into a strongly normative attitude. The idea and the concept of "liberation philosophy" was astonishingly popular (Walker), in a deliberate contrast to more sceptical approaches concerning the emancipatory potential of ICT which were expressed even in sunny Karlstad. With regard to the ongoing Internet pessimism which, by stressing the threats of terrorism and globalisation, achieves sometimes of an even apocalyptic dimension ? a good portion of sunny visions may well be a important ingredient to further Internet studies (McIlroy, Ess/Sudweeks). Further information The CATaC-conference series started in 1998 and are organized by Charles Ess (Drury University, USA) and Fay Sudweeks (Murdoch University, Australia). A discussion-list [2] offers a forum for announcements and discussion of further activities and planned publications. The contributions to the actual conference are published in the conference proceedings: Ess, Charles / Sudweeks, Fay (Ed.) (2004): Cultural attitudes towards Technology and Communication 2004. Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on Cultural Attitudes towards Technology and Communication, Karlstad, Sweden, 27 June ? 1 July 2004. Murdoch University, Murdoch. Henrike Schmidt is a researcher at the Institute of Russian and Soviet Culture at the Ruhr-University, Bochum (Germany), and is currently working on a joint research program [3] on "Cultural identity performances on the Russian Internet" (with Katy Teubener, Institute of sociology, University of M?nster), funded by the VolkswagenStiftung (Germany). Links [1] http://www.it.murdoch.edu.au/catac [2] http://www.it.murdoch.edu.au/catac [3] http://www.russian-cyberspace.org Telepolis Artikel-URL: http://www.telepolis.de/english/inhalt/konf/18168/1.html -------------------- Copyright ? 1996-2004. All Rights Reserved. Alle Rechte vorbehalten Heise Zeitschriften Verlag, Hannover _______________________________________________ widdershins mailing list widdershins@attrition.org http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From boklm at mars-attacks.org Wed Oct 13 12:59:30 2004 From: boklm at mars-attacks.org (nicolas vigier) Date: Wed Oct 13 13:10:53 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> <1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20041013165930.GH22046@mars-attacks.org> On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, drag sidious wrote: > myself to the EU or China's government myself. I can do and say things > in this country that would get me arrested in countries with lesser > garentees on free speech, such as Germany or France. Stuff that. Hmm, are you sure there are less garentees on free speech in Germany and France ? At least there is not (yet ?) something like DMCA. From ben at adversary.org Wed Oct 13 13:29:54 2004 From: ben at adversary.org (Ben McGinnes) Date: Wed Oct 13 13:37:35 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <20041013165930.GH22046@mars-attacks.org>; from boklm@mars-attacks.org on Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 06:59:30PM +0200 References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> <1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost> <20041013165930.GH22046@mars-attacks.org> Message-ID: <20041014032954.D1979@devious.adversary.org> nicolas vigier(boklm@mars-attacks.org)@Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 06:59:30PM +0200: > On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, drag sidious wrote: > > > myself to the EU or China's government myself. I can do and say things > > in this country that would get me arrested in countries with lesser > > garentees on free speech, such as Germany or France. Stuff that. > > Hmm, are you sure there are less garentees on free speech in Germany and > France ? At least there is not (yet ?) something like DMCA. Yeah, both of those countries have some interesting legacies from World War II. Or rather, from immediately following the war. Certain restrictions meant to prevent the rise of Nazism again, particularly in Germany. As for France, it's had some pro-secular/anti-religion laws since the Revolution (ref. no Muslim scarves in schools). While Germany might not be as dogmatic as France on that front, it does have laws banning "cults" (ref. Scientology). There are probably better sources for this than I, though, this is just what I can recall right now. Regards, Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.attrition.org/pipermail/widdershins/attachments/20041014/d43aac63/attachment.bin From boklm at mars-attacks.org Wed Oct 13 15:12:14 2004 From: boklm at mars-attacks.org (nicolas vigier) Date: Wed Oct 13 15:23:37 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <20041014032954.D1979@devious.adversary.org> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> <1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost> <20041013165930.GH22046@mars-attacks.org> <20041014032954.D1979@devious.adversary.org> Message-ID: <20041013191214.GI22046@mars-attacks.org> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Ben McGinnes wrote: > nicolas vigier(boklm@mars-attacks.org)@Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 06:59:30PM +0200: > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, drag sidious wrote: > > > > > myself to the EU or China's government myself. I can do and say things > > > in this country that would get me arrested in countries with lesser > > > garentees on free speech, such as Germany or France. Stuff that. > > > > Hmm, are you sure there are less garentees on free speech in Germany and > > France ? At least there is not (yet ?) something like DMCA. > > Yeah, both of those countries have some interesting legacies from > World War II. Or rather, from immediately following the war. Certain > restrictions meant to prevent the rise of Nazism again, particularly > in Germany. > > As for France, it's had some pro-secular/anti-religion laws since the > Revolution (ref. no Muslim scarves in schools). Yes, overt religious symbols are not allowed in public schools, but you are free to do what you want outside school, or in private schools. I don't really think we can talk about lesser garentees on free speech because of this law, you are still free to have the religion you like. From linlamer at cox.net Wed Oct 13 19:04:33 2004 From: linlamer at cox.net (drag sidious) Date: Wed Oct 13 19:12:27 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <20041013191214.GI22046@mars-attacks.org> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> <1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost> <20041013165930.GH22046@mars-attacks.org> <20041014032954.D1979@devious.adversary.org> <20041013191214.GI22046@mars-attacks.org> Message-ID: <1097708673.32364.36.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2004-10-13 at 14:12, nicolas vigier wrote: > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Ben McGinnes wrote: > > > nicolas vigier(boklm@mars-attacks.org)@Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 06:59:30PM +0200: > > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, drag sidious wrote: > > > > > > > myself to the EU or China's government myself. I can do and say things > > > > in this country that would get me arrested in countries with lesser > > > > garentees on free speech, such as Germany or France. Stuff that. > > > > > > Hmm, are you sure there are less garentees on free speech in Germany and > > > France ? At least there is not (yet ?) something like DMCA. > > > > Yeah, both of those countries have some interesting legacies from > > World War II. Or rather, from immediately following the war. Certain > > restrictions meant to prevent the rise of Nazism again, particularly > > in Germany. > > > > As for France, it's had some pro-secular/anti-religion laws since the > > Revolution (ref. no Muslim scarves in schools). > > Yes, overt religious symbols are not allowed in public schools, but you > are free to do what you want outside school, or in private schools. > I don't really think we can talk about lesser garentees on free speech > because of this law, you are still free to have the religion you like. > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins With Germany it's more then just trying to supress left over remnents from Ww2, but it's beginning to spread to ban all forms of "hate" speech. It is a good thing to a certain extent, but what constitutes "hate" speech? It's very subjective and will invariably lead to minority voices being squashed and ideas suppressed. Of course they are only going to pick on ideas/speech that are very very distastefull and negative. Religious speech that may promote rascism, for instance. Plus now your not only dealing with Germany, when you live in Germany, but now you have the European Union being established as a higher form of government. Which, personally, I would find much more scary then retardation like the DMCA or patriot act. There already have been rumbling between the US Government (Bush administration) and the EU from them trying to get the US to join in on filtering parts of the internet to supress distastefull ideas and forms of speech. Of course the US could never possibly join in on something like that (at least until people are convinced that "freedom of speech" is as meaningless/narrow in it's definition as "the right to keep and bare arms"), but apparently most European countries have no problem with this sort of supression of speech. See: http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,56294,00.html?tw=wn_story_related The US has some very bad mojo going that we have to paraniod about, definately. But it's a much more serious problem in places outside the US in terms of freedom of speech. Vigilance is something everybody needs to excersice instead of knee-jerk "bush is teh cheney's bitch"/"US is teh suck" type things that seems very popular nowadays. There are big political forces that we need to be very scared about. Chinese have almost perfected their methods of filtering and banning out most of the internet, As does many Middle eastern countries. It would suck if similar barriers formed themselves between western Europe and the rest of the world. From gegohouse at gmx.at Thu Oct 14 05:33:22 2004 From: gegohouse at gmx.at (Gmx Private 01) Date: Thu Oct 14 05:41:20 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <1097708673.32364.36.camel@localhost> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> <1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost> <20041013165930.GH22046@mars-attacks.org> <20041014032954.D1979@devious.adversary.org> <20041013191214.GI22046@mars-attacks.org> <1097708673.32364.36.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1136241248.20041014113322@gmx.at> Hello All, I do not think your information is really complete... 1. The only country which really has a law with 20 or more Years for "Wiederbetaetigung" so called Nazi revivalism is Austria... and this you have to understand in a historic context (Hitler being an Austrian and all...) 2. Germany has seen the most traumatic event for a civilized country - that a dictator came to power through democratic means... therefore there is a "bill of rights" the so called Grundgesetz which is no longer changeable to prevent this - there lies the basis for Germanys distrust of "subversive societies" - and lets be honest - on a corporational level there is little diference between a multinational company and the churches, be it the roman cathlic or scientology 3. There is a totally different understanding of the responsabilities of the state in Europe - in the EU the state "protects" his citizens from the private sector and organizations - this being good or bad I cannot say... 4. I remember once when in an EFF article they wanted a little more regulation in the US while the European activists wanted a little less.. the problem of the fine line as always... : ) 5. The strict division between beliefs and state is one of the foundations of continental european thinking and philosophy... you can do what you want as long as your actions do not discriminate others... as a cross or wearing the burka in school might well do... (the problem of protection as mentioned earlier) 6. Continental legal system (=acccepted -more or less - rules for societies) is a rule based system not a common law system... this is also shown in the measures... 7. The recent erosion of civil and digital rights (biometric passports, databases etc) is related to the measures the US has taken after 9/11 - and this brought the victory of the already loosing hardliners in the EU (for more info on ENFOPOL Biometric Passports, Flight Data Affair etc see www.statewatch.org) But in the end all these measures are relatively new and were introduced very fast - the question will now be of they are accepted by the population - because if there is a continuous debate they will be questioned and reversed again as it happens so often with new laws and new areas where there is no further experience... So in the end for me, coming from the continental tradition, I would rather say our rights are better protected in Europe than in the US - but that, I am sure, depends heavily on your personal background... just my 5 cent, cheers, gego Thursday, October 14, 2004, 1:04:33 AM, you wrote: > On Wed, 2004-10-13 at 14:12, nicolas vigier wrote: >> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Ben McGinnes wrote: >> >> > nicolas vigier(boklm@mars-attacks.org)@Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 06:59:30PM +0200: >> > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, drag sidious wrote: >> > > >> > > > myself to the EU or China's government myself. I can do and say things >> > > > in this country that would get me arrested in countries with lesser >> > > > garentees on free speech, such as Germany or France. Stuff that. >> > > >> > > Hmm, are you sure there are less garentees on free speech in Germany and >> > > France ? At least there is not (yet ?) something like DMCA. >> > >> > Yeah, both of those countries have some interesting legacies from >> > World War II. Or rather, from immediately following the war. Certain >> > restrictions meant to prevent the rise of Nazism again, particularly >> > in Germany. >> > >> > As for France, it's had some pro-secular/anti-religion laws since the >> > Revolution (ref. no Muslim scarves in schools). >> >> Yes, overt religious symbols are not allowed in public schools, but you >> are free to do what you want outside school, or in private schools. >> I don't really think we can talk about lesser garentees on free speech >> because of this law, you are still free to have the religion you like. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> widdershins mailing list >> widdershins@attrition.org >> http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > With Germany it's more then just trying to supress left over remnents > from Ww2, but it's beginning to spread to ban all forms of "hate" > speech. > It is a good thing to a certain extent, but what constitutes "hate" > speech? It's very subjective and will invariably lead to minority voices > being squashed and ideas suppressed. Of course they are only going to > pick on ideas/speech that are very very distastefull and negative. > Religious speech that may promote rascism, for instance. > Plus now your not only dealing with Germany, when you live in Germany, > but now you have the European Union being established as a higher form > of government. Which, personally, I would find much more scary then > retardation like the DMCA or patriot act. > There already have been rumbling between the US Government (Bush > administration) and the EU from them trying to get the US to join in on > filtering parts of the internet to supress distastefull ideas and forms > of speech. > Of course the US could never possibly join in on something like that (at > least until people are convinced that "freedom of speech" is as > meaningless/narrow in it's definition as "the right to keep and bare > arms"), but apparently most European countries have no problem with this > sort of supression of speech. > See: > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,56294,00.html?tw=wn_story_related > The US has some very bad mojo going that we have to paraniod about, > definately. But it's a much more serious problem in places outside the > US in terms of freedom of speech. > Vigilance is something everybody needs to excersice instead of knee-jerk > "bush is teh cheney's bitch"/"US is teh suck" type things that seems > very popular nowadays. There are big political forces that we need to be > very scared about. Chinese have almost perfected their methods of > filtering and banning out most of the internet, As does many Middle > eastern countries. It would suck if similar barriers formed themselves > between western Europe and the rest of the world. > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins -- Best regards, Gmx mailto:gegohouse@gmx.at From bootleg at charter.net Thu Oct 14 15:06:25 2004 From: bootleg at charter.net (Bootleg) Date: Thu Oct 14 15:14:26 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local><416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local><1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost><6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com><1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost><20041013165930.GH22046@mars-attacks.org><20041014032954.D1979@devious.adversary.org><20041013191214.GI22046@mars-attacks.org><1097708673.32364.36.camel@localhost> <1136241248.20041014113322@gmx.at> Message-ID: <008a01c4b220$e76b8f20$591cba44@motherfucker> Is that why the people born in England are called "SUBJECTS", not "CITIZENS", as are the people born in the US, because they have better "Rights" in England and in other Monarchies as "Subjects", IE Property, that we do as citizens of a Democracy??? Sadly our citizens here in the US is over halfway and accelerating quickly, toward becomming the "Big Brother society portrayed in the movie 1984". This dismantleing of our civil rights is almost complete and I see no way that things will get better. Read the clip below I'm posting. FDA Approves Human RFID: Is this the beginning of the end? Will we all be tracked via RFID chips someday? Maybe, maybe not but the FDA has approved RFID chips for people with Alzheimer's disease, diabetes, heart problems and other stuff. All they have to do next is put your credit card info in there and you are all set for your next trip to the emergency room. Rumor has it you can use your implant at Wal-Mart too. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has approved the practice of injecting humans with tracking devices for medical purposes, according to a Florida company that makes the devices. Applied Digital, maker of the implantable VeriChip for humans. Nuff Said- Bootleg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gmx Private 01" To: "drag sidious" Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 2:33 AM Subject: Re[2]: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... > Hello All, > > I do not think your information is really complete... > > 1. The only country which really has a law with 20 or more Years for > "Wiederbetaetigung" so called Nazi revivalism is Austria... and this > you have to understand in a historic context (Hitler being an Austrian > and all...) > > 2. Germany has seen the most traumatic event for a civilized country - > that a dictator came to power through democratic means... therefore > there is a "bill of rights" the so called Grundgesetz which is no > longer changeable to prevent this - there lies the basis for Germanys > distrust of "subversive societies" - and lets be honest - on a > corporational level there is little diference between a multinational > company and the churches, be it the roman cathlic or scientology > > 3. There is a totally different understanding of the responsabilities > of the state in Europe - in the EU the state "protects" his citizens > from the private sector and organizations - this being good or bad I > cannot say... > > 4. I remember once when in an EFF article they wanted a little more > regulation in the US while the European activists wanted a little > less.. the problem of the fine line as always... : ) > > 5. The strict division between beliefs and state is one of the > foundations of continental european thinking and philosophy... you can > do what you want as long as your actions do not discriminate others... > as a cross or wearing the burka in school might well do... (the > problem of protection as mentioned earlier) > > 6. Continental legal system (=acccepted -more or less - rules for > societies) is a rule based system not a common law system... this is > also shown in the measures... > > 7. The recent erosion of civil and digital rights (biometric > passports, databases etc) is related to the measures > the US has taken after 9/11 - and this brought the victory of the > already loosing hardliners in the EU (for more info on ENFOPOL > Biometric Passports, Flight Data Affair etc see www.statewatch.org) > > But in the end all these measures are relatively new and were > introduced very fast - the question will now be of they are accepted > by the population - because if there is a continuous debate they will > be questioned and reversed again as it happens so often with new laws > and new areas where there is no further experience... > > So in the end for me, coming from the continental tradition, I would > rather say our rights are better protected in Europe than in the US - > but that, I am sure, depends heavily on your personal background... > > just my 5 cent, > > cheers, > > gego > > > > > Thursday, October 14, 2004, 1:04:33 AM, you wrote: > > > On Wed, 2004-10-13 at 14:12, nicolas vigier wrote: > >> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Ben McGinnes wrote: > >> > >> > nicolas vigier(boklm@mars-attacks.org)@Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 06:59:30PM +0200: > >> > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, drag sidious wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > myself to the EU or China's government myself. I can do and say things > >> > > > in this country that would get me arrested in countries with lesser > >> > > > garentees on free speech, such as Germany or France. Stuff that. > >> > > > >> > > Hmm, are you sure there are less garentees on free speech in Germany and > >> > > France ? At least there is not (yet ?) something like DMCA. > >> > > >> > Yeah, both of those countries have some interesting legacies from > >> > World War II. Or rather, from immediately following the war. Certain > >> > restrictions meant to prevent the rise of Nazism again, particularly > >> > in Germany. > >> > > >> > As for France, it's had some pro-secular/anti-religion laws since the > >> > Revolution (ref. no Muslim scarves in schools). > >> > >> Yes, overt religious symbols are not allowed in public schools, but you > >> are free to do what you want outside school, or in private schools. > >> I don't really think we can talk about lesser garentees on free speech > >> because of this law, you are still free to have the religion you like. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> widdershins mailing list > >> widdershins@attrition.org > >> http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > With Germany it's more then just trying to supress left over remnents > > from Ww2, but it's beginning to spread to ban all forms of "hate" > > speech. > > > It is a good thing to a certain extent, but what constitutes "hate" > > speech? It's very subjective and will invariably lead to minority voices > > being squashed and ideas suppressed. Of course they are only going to > > pick on ideas/speech that are very very distastefull and negative. > > Religious speech that may promote rascism, for instance. > > > Plus now your not only dealing with Germany, when you live in Germany, > > but now you have the European Union being established as a higher form > > of government. Which, personally, I would find much more scary then > > retardation like the DMCA or patriot act. > > > There already have been rumbling between the US Government (Bush > > administration) and the EU from them trying to get the US to join in on > > filtering parts of the internet to supress distastefull ideas and forms > > of speech. > > > Of course the US could never possibly join in on something like that (at > > least until people are convinced that "freedom of speech" is as > > meaningless/narrow in it's definition as "the right to keep and bare > > arms"), but apparently most European countries have no problem with this > > sort of supression of speech. > > > See: > > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,56294,00.html?tw=wn_story_related > > > The US has some very bad mojo going that we have to paraniod about, > > definately. But it's a much more serious problem in places outside the > > US in terms of freedom of speech. > > > Vigilance is something everybody needs to excersice instead of knee-jerk > > "bush is teh cheney's bitch"/"US is teh suck" type things that seems > > very popular nowadays. There are big political forces that we need to be > > very scared about. Chinese have almost perfected their methods of > > filtering and banning out most of the internet, As does many Middle > > eastern countries. It would suck if similar barriers formed themselves > > between western Europe and the rest of the world. > > > _______________________________________________ > > widdershins mailing list > > widdershins@attrition.org > > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins > > > > -- > Best regards, > Gmx mailto:gegohouse@gmx.at > > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins From thehiddenfire at yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 03:20:32 2004 From: thehiddenfire at yahoo.com (Justin Johnson [GHA]) Date: Sun Oct 17 03:28:25 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20041017072032.12923.qmail@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> I'm still here too and I agree. This list is unique in that its members still chat back up after periods of silence; however prolonged they may be. -Justin --- Alan Bounds wrote: > You know, I've heard of loss and seen some incredible things. > I've been apart of countless groups that just fade away... But > to tell the truth, this is the only group I've been on that still has > people who respond after months of inactivity... I guess it's our > need to know somebody out there is still fighting against those > insane officials out there... Score one for the little guys... thanks > jamyang for the link about Freegate... kiss this Symantec... > ...Alan ===== Protest and survive! -Justin ::[GHA] http://gha.booleangate.org _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From gegohouse at gmx.at Mon Oct 18 03:57:00 2004 From: gegohouse at gmx.at (Gmx Private 01) Date: Mon Oct 18 04:05:18 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Indymedia Part 2... In-Reply-To: <1097708673.32364.36.camel@localhost> References: <200410112311.44143.indianz@indianz.ch> <1097524033.2853.0.camel@local> <416B2A12.1090903@netscape.net> <1097596698.2653.2.camel@local> <1097612881.4490.19.camel@localhost> <6.0.0.22.2.20041012164216.02936fb8@pop3.direcway.com> <1097621256.4490.69.camel@localhost> <20041013165930.GH22046@mars-attacks.org> <20041014032954.D1979@devious.adversary.org> <20041013191214.GI22046@mars-attacks.org> <1097708673.32364.36.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <12410136048.20041018095700@gmx.at> Latest News from EFF... Diebold Coughs Up Cash in Copyright Case California - The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) capped its historic victory in a copyright abuse case against electronic voting machine manufacturer Diebold today. The corporation agreed to pay $125,000 in damages and fees. The settlement, a win for free speech advocates, comes after a California district court found that Diebold had knowingly misrepresented that online commentators, including Indymedia and two Swarthmore college students, had infringed the company's copyrights. "It makes me happy that students in this situation in the future won't have to worry about big corporations breathing down their necks," said Nelson Pavlosky, one of the students. Diebold is the first company to be held liable for violating section 512(f) of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), which makes it unlawful to use DMCA takedown threats when the copyright holder knows that infringement has not actually occurred. The section also stipulates that anyone who issues such frivolous threats must pay damages, including costs and attorneys' fees, to those harmed by the misrepresentations... Full Release, OPG v. Diebold, E-voting Information Sheets October 15, 2004 Indymedia Servers Mysteriously Reappear, But Questions Remain San Francisco, CA - Rackspace Managed Hosting, the San Antonio-based company that manages two Indymedia servers seized by the US government last Thursday, said yesterday that the servers have been returned and are now available to go back online. Immediate access to the servers, which host Indymedia's Internet radio station and more than 20 Indymedia websites, will be delayed so that the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) can ensure that the servers are secure and take steps to preserve evidence for future legal action. Now that the servers have been returned, the question still remains: who took them, and under what authority? Citing a gag order, Rackspace would not comment on what had happened both in the original seizure of the servers or their return. All that is known at this point is that the subpoena that resulted in the seizure was issued at the request of a foreign government, most likely with the assistance of the United States Attorney's Office in San Antonio. Although initial reports suggested that the FBI had taken the servers, the FBI has now denied any involvement... Full Release, Indymedia.org October 13, 2004 EFF Challenges Secret Government Order to Shut Down Media Websites San Francisco, CA - The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is representing a coalition of independent Internet journalists whose websites were shut down on Thursday, October 7, when their servers were seized by the FBI. The two servers, which were located in the United Kingdom and managed by San Antonio-based Rackspace Managed Hosting, hosted Indymedia's Internet radio station and more than 20 Indymedia websites, as well as several email lists. The seizure was in response to a "Commissioner's Subpoena" issued at the request of a foreign government. Citing a gag order, Rackspace has provided no further details. An FBI spokesperson has confirmed that the subpoena was issued at the request of Italian and Swiss authorities. Earlier this month, the FBI made informal requests to both Rackspace and Indymedia to remove an Indymedia news story that included photos of undercover Swiss investigators posing as anti-globalization activists. At the time, the FBI admitted that the posting did not violate US law... Full Release, Indymedia.org October 12, 2004 From linlamer at cox.net Mon Oct 18 08:50:30 2004 From: linlamer at cox.net (drag sidious) Date: Mon Oct 18 08:58:39 2004 Subject: [widdershins] Amazing... and yet we still survive... In-Reply-To: <20041017072032.12923.qmail@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041017072032.12923.qmail@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1098103829.17805.5.camel@localhost> Tis a good thing. Arggh. Hey, anybody check out www.osvdb.org lately? They have a snazzy rss feed that helps you to keep up on the latest vunerabilities and what to do to fix them. Also their website has vendor contact information database for various vendors so that you can more easily contact them if you have a problem. On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 02:20, Justin Johnson [GHA] wrote: > I'm still here too and I agree. This list is unique in that its members still chat back > up after periods of silence; however prolonged they may be. > -Justin > > --- Alan Bounds wrote: > > > You know, I've heard of loss and seen some incredible things. > > I've been apart of countless groups that just fade away... But > > to tell the truth, this is the only group I've been on that still has > > people who respond after months of inactivity... I guess it's our > > need to know somebody out there is still fighting against those > > insane officials out there... Score one for the little guys... thanks > > jamyang for the link about Freegate... kiss this Symantec... > > ...Alan > > ===== > Protest and survive! > -Justin ::[GHA] http://gha.booleangate.org > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > widdershins mailing list > widdershins@attrition.org > http://www.attrition.org/mailman/listinfo/widdershins